Ultimate Explorer's Nick Baker on Cambodia Poachers

Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News

June 6, 2003

National Geographic's flagship television series EXPLORER has a new
look, a new name, and a new high-energy take on documentary filmmaking.
The result is Ultimate Explorer, an hour-long, correspondent-
driven series hosted by Lisa Ling.

This Sunday naturalist Nick Baker tags along with eco-warriors on an armed hunt for Cambodia's poachers—and finds a more complex story than he bargained for. Watch Poacher Patrol this Sunday June 8, at 8 p.m. ET/PT. Baker chatted with National Geographic News about his Cambodia assignment, and the thorny dilemma facing people and wildlife in that Southeast Asia nation.

You went to Cambodia to investigate poaching and illegal lumbering in that country—a situation that's being battled in some places with almost military tactics. What's going on there and how bad is the problem?

Cambodia is one of the few places in Southeast Asia that still has a large amount of forest cover. Historically, of course, the country has had a quite rocky past. But when the Khmer Rouge were in power, people weren't going into the forest. The forests received some of the best protection in the world because people were too scared to go into them. With the Khmer Rouge gone the forests opened up and people turned to them to try to survive.

When people are so desperate you can't blame them. If someone took away all of what you own, really everything, what would you do? You'd do what they are doing—you'd go into the woods. I walked into this assignment thinking that I would, as usual, be strictly an ardent defender of conservation. But I ended up feeling very sad for the people. I want the two to coexist. For the fist time in my life, I really can't see an answer.

You visited markets there and could see the fruits of the wildlife trade, animals and animal products, for sale. Is that really the problem, or is deeper?

It's an unknown. Nobody knows what's really going on, the real extent of what's going on. Trading in all wildlife is illegal in Cambodia. People have been stamping down on the trade in wildlife, but it goes on as it always has. These animals are not always the kind of animals we love. Frogs for example are not a species that will provoke an outcry, like monkeys.

But the wildlife we see in the small local markets is not the major problem. Deforestation is the major problem and it's compounding all of the wildlife issues. The raids we did (with the nongovernment organization WildAid) generally had to do with logging. We didn't find a lot of the animal trade—which has been driven underground somewhat.

You went on military-style raids with WildAid, an NGO that's taking the fight to poachers. What impressions did you get of their efforts?

We did travel with WildAid, and we also spoke to some poachers. The conclusion we came to is that the paramilitary style of these eco-warriors results really in just a tiny, tiny number of patrols in a tiny piece of one national park. It's taken three to four years for them to get to the current state and that state is really pretty useless. In some sense it's like people playing soldiers with a justification for it. I mean, they are doing something, and a lot of what they do is very good, but I'm not sure how effective it can be.

Have you ever been in a combat situation? These poacher patrols are armed and the people they encounter can be heavily armed as well.

Combat? (laughs) I'm a naturalist. I grew up in a nice quiet naturalist way, you know, chasing bugs around the patio. The next thing I know I get a call from National Geographic and I'm running around in a forest with lots of guys with automatic weapons. It was very uncomfortable because I'm not a gun person. I can see this thing escalating into an arms race; that's how they start. People arm themselves to fight poachers and the poachers up the ante, and it goes on. Before you know it people will be dying out here again over a different issue.

WildAid is largely funded by Western money. What kind of effort is the Cambodian government making?

Well, environmental issues aren't too high up on the Cambodian government's list at the moment. They're not high on anyone's list really; look at America and the UK for example. How can we expect the Cambodians to give a damn? It's very easy to superimpose Western ideals on a country that's really struggling and shackled with a massive debt. I don't believe you can do it. Yes, the government has to wake up and see the problem or by the time they get the rest of it sorted out there will be nothing left. But I don't know how you can make them do it.

The trade animals you saw captured live, injured by snares, were just in terrible shape. How tough is it for you as a naturalist to see them in these conditions?

I'm a realistic naturalist. I find it patronizing when you see people like myself out there telling people what should or should not happen in areas where things have been going on for a long time. Animal welfare is a different issue from animal conservation. In a country with no refrigeration, they transport animals alive to keep them fresh. For example, they move these ducks around on little motorbikes with like 150 live ducks hanging off the back of the bike, banging off the exhaust and the like. When you see that, especially in a country where the people have done such horrific things to each other, you see that the issue of suffering, animal or human, is so much part of their life. To tell them that's wrong, well, you couldn't do it.

How effective can any deterrents be, armed or otherwise, if people are in such desperate straits?

These people are kind of reinventing themselves. Many of these people have no forest experience. It's like you and me saying "What have we got here that will help us somehow survive until next week?" That's what they are doing… They've got nothing else.

WildAid is a very hardcore group. When they catch poachers they take all of their kit, all of their gear, and make them fingerprint a document that promises they won't do it again. Well, we talked to the poachers and they say, "this makes our life miserable." They take their equipment and a single chainsaw might cost years of income. It might be all they have and it hurts and it makes it very tough on them.

But still, these people are caught multiple times. They may know the reasons why they mustn't do this, but then come the next week there's no food or the kids are sick. Where do they go? No matter how you threaten someone, when they are at that level of desperation they have to keep doing it.

Cambodia is not alone is it? This is a growing problem in lots of developing countries?

It's not the first time I've seen it, but it's the most extreme example I've seen of this kind of thing. I'm off to the Congo next week and that part of the Africa has the same problems. In fact there is much more organized and scary deforestation going on there, where they are really destroying the forested belt of central Africa.

It's a difficult dilemma, any solutions come to mind?

Not really. It's a very complicated issue with lots of interlocking threads. You've got to make up your own mind. I came away confused and with questions that I never expected to have. I also came away a bit depressed and without a lot of hope about this situation improving.