Opinion: Why Are We Still Hunting Lions?

Ban! 

Murder of any living being, animal or man, should not be encouraged and be allowed to freely gloat over!!

I once saw a website about trophy hunting of an endangered buffalo here in the Philippines which can be found in just one tiny island and number to only about less than 600. The website is owned by an american safari company.

Totally for a ban. Lions are being captive bred like sheep in South Africa I've been told solely for the purpose of offering them up for canned (trophy) hunts. Horrible practice.

Chris Mercer, Campaign Against Canned Hunting was recently interviewed in a special report http://youtu.be/Hav-1GuVcWQ where wildlife conservationists discuss the cruelty and cowardice associated with trophy hunting.

America you should be ashamed. Get that ban in place!

A no brainer, hunters pick out the best of the species which leaves the lesser to reproduce so it turns into a double jeopardy for the future generations of lions. But this is a sick and immoral practice to begin with. Come on people , grow a sense of compassion, or is that an outdated part of humanity as well! NOT !

Trophy hunting is a vile & disgusting practice. Killing for fun.Killing animals that you don't eat ,but I've even heard some restaurants are serving lionburgers ! WHY?? The men who support this atrocity need to have a reality check as to what constitutes true masculinity. They must have a massive case of insecurity & inferiority to find delight in killing helpless creatures for no reason. They are all a waste of skin & space & do not deserve to be called human.

The game is almost over
https://vimeo.com/35792474

the more people know about it, the more people love them, the less it happens until it is none .

Sport killing is sick and disgusting. There are "farms" that raise lions for sport hunting. There is nothing courageous about taking a life for fun, and if you see differently, you are a worthless excuse for a human being. 

There is no reason to kill an animal unless you are hunting for food. Killing just to put the head on your wall and wasting its life is just something I couldn't stomach.

And high lineage people like the king of Spain use to hunt wild animals (lions included) just to have some fun.. .  It´s a shame!! And it´s outrageous!!

The founder of Godaddy is a major offender.  I remember seeing a photo of him posing with an elephant he had shot.  There is nothing heroic, honorable, or prideful about shooting an endangered or otherwise threatened species.  I'll never understand the mentality of someone who says to themselves, "I've always wanted to kill/shoot/hunt a _____."  What a sad life you must live to find joy in the death of lions and other magnificent creatures by your own hand.

It is very sad, if you have that much money why not instead only go on more safari trips and enjoy the life of the wilderness instead of a death you have brought upon them.

What I do not understand is how these people can pose with pride next to the corpses of these endangered animals clutching the rifle that they have used to shoot them (from a safe distance and requiring no courage whatsoever) If they were holding a spear, that would at least show some personal mettle but a gun? Contemptuous cowards.Throw in animals lured to a waterhole or salt lick (so not even any tracking ability needed) or worse trapped and a sitting target and I wonder what these people imagine they are proving about themselves.*would have been concentration camp guards in a previous life*

An eye-opener and extremely informative article, Jeff !!!

I suppose my basic question, why do we need to need to 'trophy' hunt anything?? 

If individuals feel that strongly about conservation and supporting the local communities, why not help by investing their dollars into education, planting crops etc? 

I feel this justification for hunting to help pour money back in to conservation, is really just an excuse to go and kill something wild and even worse something endangered.

Thank you every one for your comments and the healthy discussion regarding trophy hunting and lion conservation.  As mentioned in the article, while hunting is not the primary cause of lion decline, trophy hunting is a problem that is only adding to the decline.  Reducing all possible pressures on the species is necessary if we are going to make a difference and allow for recovery.  And hunting for sport is a stress that Americans can easily alleviate.  If you'd like to take action to support the Petition to list African lions as Endangered under the US Endangered Species Act, please visit www.helpafricanlions.org.  Sincerely, Jeff Flocken

My response to those who write that killing for fun is irrelevant for species management is that comment itself is irrelevant. Killing for fun is always relevant, totally appalling, and completely unacceptable. Killing these animals for “trophies” disgusts me.

Last month the American Eastern Mountain lion went EXTINCT, they are still shooting lions HERE in the US..how about we clean up our OWN act as well?  But rich folk pay very well to kill lions and rich folk stuff their pockets with $$ don't they?

you can not allow the lions to disappear in africa. if they are all gone then there will be no one to chase the guys around and make them the fastest people in track and field in the world. it will be devestating to track and field around the world to see someone other than a person from africa win, if not for the lions , they will lose their speed edge.so please save the lions. thank you. fellow jogger. 

Which representatives should be contacted to discuss protecting lions under the Endangered Species Act? Is there already a petition addressed to these law-makers about this issue? I think many people reading this article who feel these lions should be protected would like to take some form of action to help the cause.

Get rid of the hunters along with the poachers!

I wonder what it is that these men feel when they kill an animal from a distance.  Euphoria?  Pride?  It's sick.

Jeff, thanks for bringing this situation to our attention.Do you have a link for a way to support the addition of the lions to the list? Is there any sort of petition or anything going around? Thanks.

I'd vote to allow sport hunting of lions if a hunter is limited to a knife as a weapon. This would certainly control the population of sport hunters.

http://www.africabig5.co.za/gallery/hunting-photo-gallery/ Thats why...And that are all CEO's of big Compagnies.

Da man die Bider dieser Idioten hat, kann man sie sicher fassen und bestrafen. Ich bin fassungslos über die Ignoranz. Wir haben nur noch wenige Exemplare und sollten sie wie einen kostbarer Schatz behüten.

I have always thought that there is something mentally suspect about people who kill for fun. Not as a job, but as amusement.

The important concept to keep in mind with wildlife mgmt is that it is the POPULATION and not the INDIVIDUAL that is being managed.  If the lion is to be saved in Africa, it is going to be about stopping habitat destruction, overpopulation of humans, and poisoning by herdsmen.  Not sport hunting.  Regulated hunting never destroys the POPULATION.  Unregulated poaching does.  Those versed in the science of wildlife mgmt will will recognize the term compensatory mortality - where hunting does not add to the overall mortality factor - which as a whole is made up of natural mortality factors as well.  People putting all their efforts to stop sport hunting will NOT save the lion.  There are much bigger factors at play.  Kenya has not allowed sport hunting for decades, and their lion population is declining as well - due to the other more important factors I originally referred to.  People need to get perspective on what the real causes of problems in this world really are.

@Caroline LeBreton Even better, donate some of that money to preserve it!

@T Laudrum   No one needs to trophy hunt.  No one needs to eat meat.  No one needs to have more than 2 children per family.  But a lot of people do those things.  I personally don't like basketball - should I lobby Congress to outlaw the NBA?  No - people would say if you don't like it, don't watch it, and don't participate in it.  If you don't like hunting, don't partake in it.  Different people have different proclivities.

Investing money to help plant crops in Africa would undoubtedly hasten the demise of the lion, as habitat loss is probably the number one cause of decline of wildlife numbers.  Farmers who raise cattle will poison whole prides of lions to avoid any problems with their livestock.

Do you know the history of Teddy Roosevelt?  He was a passionate hunter, outdoorsman, and conservationist.  He did more to protect natural areas and wildlife in this country than any president ever has or ever will.  To him wildlife had value and needed to be protected.  Prior to him, people who did NOT see value in wildlife did their best to permanently eliminate the wolves, bears, cougars, bison, and many other species.  

When people do not attribute value to something (wildlife), it becomes valueless to society, and society does not care if it is eliminated.  When you have large numbers of people who want to hunt an elk or deer, the elk and deer will be regulated, managed, and preserved from extinction.  If you were to outlaw all hunting, likely most of the wildlife would be eliminated outside of purely protected parks and preserves.  It seems to be human nature to only protect things they can gain personal value from by utilizing it.

You absolutely nailed it. To justify something by pointing at the positive affect (even at a minuscule level) it may have seems so arbitrary.

@Dorothy Snowden The eastern mountain lion was DECLARED extinct recently, but has likely been extirpated from the US for most of a century.  The USFWS finally made the decision that yes - likely there are no more of them anymore.  And there is debate on whether there even was an eastern subspecies.  It is quite likely was the same species as the commonly recognized cougar which still resides in western states.

@Rebecca Hamilton Thanks for this comment Rebecca.  IFAW, along with a coalition of wildlife organizations, submitted a petition in March of 2011to Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) to list the African lion as Endangered under the U.S. Endangered Species Act (so it's the Obama Administration that will make the final decision). The Service is currently reviewing public comments and are in the process of making a decision.  You can take action by submitting a comment at IFAW’s www.helpafricanlions.org. IFAW will deliver all comments tothe Administration for their review.  Thank you for wanting to take action to help lions!  Sincerely, Jeff Flocken

@Sally Kotze And the market for the poached animal parts as well.  As long as there is someone who is willing to pay, the murder of these animals will continue.

@Sally Kotze Get rid of the lions, leopards, tigers, wolves, and bears?  Those animals all hunt as part of their place in nature, and can also be called "hunters."  Again, hunting and killing is a part of nature that animals in nature partake in.  Is man part of nature or not?

And it clearly is unregulated hunting or - poaching - that is causing the decline and demise of our wildlife in this world.  But mostly habitat destruction.  

@Joe Sampson I think it basically comes down to overcompensation for lack of physical and/or sexual prowess. Same reason men drive big powerful vehicles.

@Laura Miller Hi Laura.  It would be great if you (or anyone reading this) wanted to take action.  The Service is currently reviewing public comments on the Petition to List African Lions as endangered, and are in the process of making a decision. You can take action by submitting a comment at IFAW’s www.helpafricanlions.org. IFAW will deliver all comments to the Administration for their review. Thank you for wanting to take action to help lions! Sincerely, Jeff Flocken

@RC Lee Unfortunately, there are hunters who find it challenging to hunt and kill with knives ... as with feral hogs, cornered by dogs and then brutally killed by hand. I suspect there would be no dearth of macho dipsh**ts wanting to take this on with respect to lions.

@Hildegard Purfürst These are the man: http://www.africabig5.co.za/hunting-safaris/rhino-darting/

And here...http://www.africabig5.co.za/gallery/hunting-photo-gallery/

@Wayne Werne

??!!??!!??.....did you even read the article?           Here's a pertinent sentence..."Trophy hunting is also counter-evolutionary, as it's based on selectively taking the large, robust, and healthy males from a population for a hunter's trophy room. These are the same crucial individuals that in a natural system would live long, full lives, protecting their mates and cubs and contributing their genes to future generations."

@Wayne Werne

 @Wayne Werne You'll probably get in trouble for speaking so much sense. But you are right, of course. Whether killing for fun is despicable or not is largely (if not entirely) irrelevant for species management, and I'm not sure whether comments about that belong in this discussion. The only thing that really matters is whether trophy hunting is detrimental or beneficial for the species as a whole. In theory it should - or could - be beneficial, of course - the funding, the amount of dollars per person (compared to wildlife viewing tourism), and the focus on individuals already past their prime who are, therefore, unlikely to contribute further to their species. Countries like Kenya - where there has been no hunting for well over three decades - are in serious trouble, with lions as well as most of their other large mammals. 

The problem, of course, is corruption - the shooting of younger individuals (those still in their prime - then it really is very damaging to population health), funds not going where they are meant to (local communities OR the correct government departments - because let's not pretend that a huge amount of revenues from 'regular' wildlife tourism reaches the local communities either), and so on. So most of the problems associated with trophy hunting are management problems, as with any other wildlife management system. Mismanagement in this case can have quite pronounced effects in a relatively short amount of time, of course. But mismanagement of other forms of wildlife management has had at least as damaging results. In Kenya, it has been primarily a question of 1) agriculture in key resource areas, 2) land encroachment, 3) bush-meat poaching and 4) increased human populations around park boundaries. Several of these are directly caused by, or are facilitated by, increasing - but poorly managed - 'regular' wildlife tourism. And Kenya lost around two thirds of its large mammals in thirty years, something that has been extremely well documented.

So at the end of the day, there are two questions we must ask. 1) Can the countries in question handle trophy hunting and the (almost) inevitable corruption, given the large amounts of money involved? And 2) Is it worth the PR damage? Because although the nature of killing for fun is irrelevant to the viability of hunting as an isolated wildlife management system, it is not irrelevant if enough negative PR is generated to have a significant impact on the wildlife management industry as a whole - if it leads to a significant decline in visitor numbers, and therefore revenue, for example. It is this, not some imagined moral awakening, which has led to countries like Botswana moving away from the trophy hunting industry. 

And no, I am not a hunter. Nor would I consider hunting just 'for fun'. But as I said, our personal opinions on the act of hunting are irrelevant here. We are trying to save species, not individuals, so IF it can be shown to be a viable alternative, the killing of an individual in order to raise funds to protect the species should not be dismissed so lightly. Yes, in an ideal world we would not even need to have this discussion. But what you must be able to show is that other alternatives are, without a doubt, better. Me, I think that hunting is probably not an ideal solution in areas that are able to attract large numbers of 'regular' tourists. But in areas that are unable to raise sufficient revenue from tourism, well-managed hunting can certainly be seen as preferable to, for example, turning wildlife habitat into agricultural land. So while I would prefer that trophy hunting was entirely unnecessary, I don't think it can be so easily dismissed - not universally, at least. No matter how much we would like to do so.

@Wayne Werne Catch a wake you arrogant hunter, may I hunt your children simply because there are to many people on the planet?? Stop feeding your ego

@Wayne Werne I disagree with you! Trophy hunting removes the biggest male possible - i.e. the pride male. I come from a protected area management background and have voted for Lion Trophy hunting to be banned and the import of Trophies to the US naturally to be banned as well.

Regardless of anything, hunting an animal for fun is despicable in my opinion. The disruption is not only in terms of emotional impact on surviving members (which varies from nil to significant, depending on the species of the hunted animal) akin to what happens among humans but also on the natural flow of events (which in case of lions is in terms of newer males taking over a pride and killing off a litter of cubs and the changing balance of power of lions viz. a viz. hyenas due to smaller numbers of the former).

You can talk about perspective when dealing with the problem of a declining species, but you have absolutely no argument FOR hunting; only contrived arguments that justify the extent of damage caused 'for fun'.

The moral and human factor that makes killing for fun despicable and unscrupulous is of course, my own opinion, and the practice will continue regardless. If we didn't get into trouble killing people, I'm sure a lot of people would love to shoot down the hunters just for fun. Alas.

@Wayne Werne@T Laudrum 

I appreciate your response Wayne however the reasoning you have presented seem a little thin for justifying why it is reasonable to hunt an endangered animal for what is ultimately a humans own selfish pleasure.  The killing serves no one but the individual and their selfie they have on the mantle. 

Like I said previously, if the these individuals want to help conservation and wildlife I am sure they can in more meaningful and productive ways other than picking up a gun.

@Jeffrey Flocken @Rebecca Hamilton There is one problem with leaving a comment on that web site. i can select my country, 'South Africa' but it still wants me to select a US state or it won't validate.There is not a 'State' option like 'Other' or 'outside US'. Thanks.

@ Wayne Werne

Nature is out of balance due to man.  If human hunters would be responsible by only killing animals that are overpopulated, that would be fine.  Killing animals that are endangered is selfish.

@Rick O'bryan @Wayne Werne  Yes, I read the article, and as I understand it, large maned lions have been genetically selected against in Botswana due to targeting by trophy hunters.  But some of this has to do with basic biology.  Many times the dominant males will have already passed their genes on to their offspring by the time they get killed.  If this were not the case, you would never see a whitetail deer in the east or an elk in the west with large antlers, as I can assure you those animals are definitely targeted by a lot more hunters here in the US.

@Sally Kotze @Wayne Werne Um, Sally - intelligent discourse is not well served by people like you resorting to name calling.  I have a Bachelors degree in Wildlife Management and a Masters degree in forest ecology.  I have studied these things extensively and tend to know a lot about what I talk about.  It can be a science based discussion and not simply an emotional tantrum fest.

@Skanda Tejaswi Nature is a harsh place, and people tend to interject human emotion onto many things that would exist in the absence of human emotion.  Lions pulling down a wildebeest or Cape buffalo is highly traumatic for those prey animals.  But this is part of the cycle of life, and the lions don't care - they just strive to do what they do and survive.  

As for the disruption of the pride dynamic, I am sure this does present a problem beyond the killing of the individual maned male.  But I have seen a number of wildlife documentaries where the photographers followed the saga of nonhunted prides.  In several of those instances, the story documented the influx of young males who challenged the dominant pride male and the result is many times mortal injuries that end the life of the dominant male.

My argument FOR hunting is that the countries that allow regulated hunting seem to have the healthiest wildlife populations.  Unfortunately, in this human world, it seems that only the things that have value placed upon them are the things that are managed for.  Things that have no "value" to humans and threaten them tend to get systematically eliminated.  Many examples of that throughout history.

Alas, the natural world is a harsh place - with or without human emotion or values.

@T Laudrum @Wayne Werne The question may be perhaps - what constitutes and endangered species?  I believe there are an estimated 1700 wolves in the Idaho-Montana region resulting from the reintroduction project back in the 90's.  Much less than the estimated 32,000 lion estimate I have heard.  Yet, Montana and Idaho have regulated hunting seasons on wolves.  Somewhere in the process of regulating wildlife, the USFWS has decreed that wolves are not endangered enough to preclude legal hunting in the lower 48.  Yet it is being proposed that they impose a ban on the importation of lion products.  There are probably no black and white answers when one delves into these issues.

The other part of this debate is - what about the large sums of money that trophy hunting injects into the places where hunting is allowed.  I don't know how much of that filters down to the locals, but certainly some of it does.  A lot of money for wildlife conservation - especially in this country - has been directly funneled from fees and taxes on sporting equipment and licenses.

@Deon Pretorius @Jeffrey Flocken @Rebecca Hamilton

Sorry about that Deon.  We've fixed the alert to allow for international comments - you can now fill in your country and disregard the State field. You should receive an email from IFAW shortly after submitting your comment notifying you that your comment went through.  Best, Jeff

@Milo Crotoni  Milo, I generally agree with your statement.  Nature is out of balance due to man.  I think part of the debate here is - are lions truly endangered as a population across their range?  As the article stated, they are not currently listed by USFWS, so technically, they are not.  That is why hunting is currently allowed.  My point here has been that there are much bigger causes of lion decline than sport hunting - overpopulation of people and habitat destruction and poaching and poisoning being several of them.  Until those very real factors are addressed, allowing or eliminating sport hunting will likely have no impact on the population decline experienced over the last several decades.

@Justin L. @Wayne Werne @Sally Kotze  Okay Justin, what is your qualification for weighing in on this issue?  You saw a lion in the zoo once?  The reason I have two degrees in natural resource management is because that is what I care about, so I took 6 years to study it in all of its aspects, including the history of wildlife management and conservation, or the lack thereof throughout history.  I currently work on a state owned property managing the timber resource there.  I've made this my career because I know my field and that is what I want to do.  We have some state endangered and federally endangered animals that are known only to that area, and that is part of the management of the ecosystem.  I'd venture that I know a lot more about resource management and what does work and what doesn't than you do.  You just happen to have a different opinion than I do.  That does not translate into a poor  indicator of my intelligence or abilities.

@Wayne Werne @Sally Kotze The number of degrees a person has is often a poor indicator of intelligence.  

@Rhyan Rudman @Wayne Werne @Christos Gardikiotis @Skanda Tejaswi   Well, I eat what I hunt, so in my opinion, it is a way to acquire a source of food, and enjoy nature and the human heritage of hunting - which goes back to the Pleistocene era when nomadic people hunted mammoths and other megafauna of the time.

I have a question for you - are you a vegetarian or vegan?  If not, then what makes it right in your (or anyone's) mind to eat a hamburger made out of a domestic cow raised specifically to be slaughtered for human consumption?  There are a lot of people in world society that eat meat, and I don't think you are going to convince the majority of them that animal death by humans is unacceptable.  So to be consistent, you would have to oppose all animal husbandry and livestock farming, as well as hunting of wild game.

@Wayne Werne @Christos Gardikiotis @Skanda Tejaswi So Wayne my question, what do you get out of killing the animal?   What makes you want to go and stalk an animal and takes its life?  It sounds kind of psychotic. It borders on other words used for that type of person who does that to fellow humans. Sadly that sport does not generate income due to a legal issue.  Just a thought think about it.

@Christos Gardikiotis @Wayne Werne @Skanda TejaswiIn case you are really interested, the answer to your question is - no, I do not hunt lions or endangered animals.  I do however hunt the well managed wildlife species of this country, including whitetail deer, wild turkey, and squirrel.  No problems with those species going extinct in a well managed system like the US has for those species.

@Robert Sanders I totally agree!!

@Robert Sanders Interesting opinion in the absence of facts. Let me ask you this, why is it that when people refer to "natures way" or other natural evolutionary acts, they always take man out of the equation? Is the human race not a part of "nature?" Are we not participating in our proper role as the animal at the top of the food chain?

Do a little more research into the true factors that are devastating animal populations before you throw around words like "ignorance.'

@Wayne Werne @Skanda Tejaswi  Hey wayne, do you hunt lions and or other endangered animals for a sport?

If it is a natural course where the dominant male get's killed by a younger male and he takes over and kills the cubs, then it would be natures way. We are not god or mother earth so any interferance on our hand will result in declining numbers and eventually extinction of a species for we do not understand the cycle of life. To regulate is to displace the problem because there will alway's be area's where there is no supervision and these area's are bigger than the regulated area's. 

Indeed populations are healtier in regulated area's, as there we grand wildlife the time to recover but what about the rest. Money should flow into more wildlife resorts where we as humans don't interfere, then in to area's for a pointless sport like the bullfighting in Spain or the foxhunting in Great Brittain.

The money made by this sport doesn't benefit anybody else then forgein-based outfitters and wealthy people because the money made by the people preserving the land for hunting doesn't compare to the billions made by forgeiners for the same product. So just like with everything in Africa; The rich stay rich and the poor get poorer.

And in the long run we all will suffer for our ignorance towards nature and when that comes to fall, best believe it will not look good for us humans.